lundi 3 janvier 2005

Espace détente 3

73 commentaires:

Flocon a dit…

Anijo,

I've photoshoped the latest version of your nice painting but, really, not knowing what the original looks like, it's a very basic and guessed-based rendition that I've put on this third "espace détente" page.

Flocon a dit…

As regards what's going on in Egypt here is an article about how Israel feels about it.

An another one here.

Anijo a dit…

Thank you Flocon. Your photoshopped version looks pretty much like the original.

Thank you for the links to these two articles! I'm very concerned about what's happening in the Middle East.

Anonyme a dit…

It is a pity, that now I can not express - I am late for a meeting. But I will be released - I will necessarily write that I think on this question.

Flocon a dit…

En attendant que anonyme nous dise ce qu'il a à dire sur le sujet, why are you "very concerned about what's happening in the Middle East" Anijo?

Isn't the State where you live particularly concerned with drug lords and illegals? Which of course isn't exclusive of what's going on elsewhere in the world of course.

Looking up on Wiki, I only now understand why your blog's title was what it was (The land of enchantment).

You've got to be not only American but from the area since I suppose not all Americans know the surnames of each and every 50 States.

Anijo a dit…

Flocon,

En attendant que anonyme nous dise ce qu'il a à dire sur le sujet
lol

why are you "very concerned about what's happening in the Middle East" Anijo?

I'm guessing that you're wondering why Egypt and not specifically the problems in many other countries.

I know a lady who lives in Egypt. I'm worried about her and haven't heard a thing from her since the internet was shut down there. She's a modern moderate Muslim, very kind and forward thinking. I also know a moderate modern woman from Turkey. These two ladies have caused me to have a more personal feeling and understanding of the problems in their neck of the woods.

As for drug smuggling and illegal aliens. First, I think that all drugs should be legalized and I have no problem with illegal aliens. I grew up on a farm here in southern New Mexico and my dad employed them to work on the farm. I guess that I consider them a part of the economy. Other states, such as Arizona, might have a different experience though.

Now the situation in Juarez is critical. The murder rate is out of control. It's sad because I used to go to Juarez a lot and enjoyed the atmosphere. The drug lords are in Mexico. We don't have any drug lords in New Mexico, just the drugs.

I am definitely from the area. I have lived here all of my life except for many summers spent in Northern New Mexico with my relatives who live there, one month in Amboise, five months in Marseille and six months in Denver, Colorado. I am quite fond of the land of enchantment.

This brings to mind something I have wondered about if you don't mind my asking. Are you a native Parisien?

Flocon a dit…

So I understand your interest on what's going on in the M.E isn't only based on interest for the world in which we live but there's also a personal dimension to it.

Your friend in Egypt is OK Anijo: She's one out of 80 million Egyptians...

Je me suis mal exprimé précédemment : "You've got to be from the area" was meant to mean "One has got to be from the area."

--------------

Are you a native Parisien?

Yes Ma'am... Although my roots are from Brittany and Normandy, mais il y a des ramifications en provenance d'Espagne (chez le père de ma grand-mère paternelle) donc probablement quelques gouttes de sang arabe.

Une analyse A.D.N révèlerait peut-être que SemperFidelis is a very distant cousin from Brittany (Celtic) and Normandy (Nordic) common origin.

Go figure...

Anijo a dit…

Je me suis mal exprimé précédemment : "You've got to be from the area" was meant to mean "One has got to be from the area."

This type of misunderstanding reminds me of this SNL comedy sketch

"You can't put too much water in a nuclear reactor" has two meanings...

Anijo a dit…

Flocon,
The lady I spoke of just posted this message on the forum where I met her:



I just managed to pop in here hardly coz of the lack of freedom Mubarak is imposing on us - Egyptian nation - here ... to all the world now, I am addressing you from the real scenes in Cairo and sending you one true message of what's taking place here.

Mubarak is a tyrannical and dictatorship figure. Its not about him only, the Egyptian nation with all its social different categories are unifying and collaborating against him and against any other corrupt symbol of dictatorship in the whole world to send a message to them through us ... "Power is in people so its no use to practice any tyranny any more".

He and his gang made a low life conspiracy against us his nation ... he made the police kill us, throw tear gas bombs and then throw the dead bodies in the Nile or bury them somewhere unknown, thousands of ppl are injured and there is no blood banks sufficient to compensate them the lost blood, many are killed brutally.

However, our brave nation are not scared from this coward reactions from the police, we - the nation - continued to walk our protests despite the killings. When the number of protesters increased to reach millions, police reacted more cowardly ... they retreated back taking orders from minister of Police to hide and open prison for criminals and prisoners to come out all at one time ... imagine how chaotic and scary the scene is.

This gang's plan was as follows: to hide the police away and to make all those criminals out to scare ppl generally and the protesters to go back home but they failed you know why? coz the protesters were smarter; they divided themselves into groups some fight the criminals, others fight the police, others save their families and properties and others keep protesting ... damn!

After all this blood and lives at stake and Mubarak is still arrogant and sticking to his position not caring even to address his nation with one single message until 4 horrible days!

And then when he realized the world is looking with great worry to whats happening in Egypt ... he kinda felt that he 'must' speak out to the nation not for their sake but in a position of being forced to save his ***!

He has to change the government, after its too late. He has to announce that his evil son wont be our president after he is dead, when its too late. He has to appoint a Deputy when he totally refused this to pave the way for his son to rule us, when again its too late. We kept asking him for long all these past 30 years to do that and he never listens but he inflicts physical and spiritual torture on us. Its too late Mubarak, all we need is him to leave us now ... if not, then I am sure ... we are all in a dark tunnel.

Part of his evil tactics and low life strategy onto us - his nation - is to deprive them from means of connection with themselves and the outter world ... he suspended mobiles ph lines, curfews, no internet access to the entire country, criminals on the streets, police beating us up, food shortage, fake government and state TV, suspension of satellite news channels to blind us all.

Its an experience I ll never forget but I am very proud to be part of it.

Still incidents are occurring .. I ll update you with all the truth, nothing but the truth .. if am still alive.


All the best to you all ... pls help communicating this truth to the whole world, for the sake of real peace.

Flocon a dit…

I've watched this SNL skectch and I was surprised that I could understand about everything that they said.

Funny sketck which led me to ask my friend some more information about that TV program. First in French and then in English.

I didn't read all of the English article, just browsed through it until I arrived at the censorship part where I read something about the "Wayne's World" sketch.

There was a word I didn't know (to schwing) so I followed the link which led me here. Blush, blush...

The things I learn on this blog...

re the "You can't put too much water in a nuclear reactor", the guy who said the sentence in the first place leaves the set at the end of the sketch leaving the girl alone on the beach.

He somehow then gives his interpretation of the instruction.

The whole thing is an example of what amphibologies are.

Flocon a dit…

I've read the message from Egypt with much interest, wondering whether your friend is an American expat or a native Egyptian.

She writes "our nation", "our next president" which would leave me think she's Egyptian by birth.

On the other hand, her English seems flawless (save for some missing comas), as she writes "coz" for example, "ppl" or "kinda".

Anyway she doesn't seem to be in a hectic hurry to write a long post.

The "I ll update you with all the truth, nothing but the truth .. if am still alive." seemed bizarre to me.

The good news is that you have positive echoes from Egypt regarding her person.

Anijo a dit…

Well, I just learned two new words. I was not familiar with the word "amphibology" nor the word "schwing" (blush blush)

Impressive that you understood most everything that was said on the SNL sketch! This proves that not only are you an adept at written English, but also spoken English.

Anijo a dit…

Flocon,
She is a well-educated native Egyptian. Her English is not flawless, but it is very good.

I also know a guy from Nepal who I met on chess.com. We have become internet buddies. He also uses words like "cuz" and "u 2" for "you too". It's amazing how people from all over the world have become familiar with English slang.

Anijo a dit…

there is no blood banks sufficient to compensate them the lost blood, many are killed brutally.

Here is an example. This should read compensate them for.

This is the type of mistake made by someone who understands English quite well, but is not a native speaker.

Anijo a dit…

Also it should read "there are no blood banks"

Flocon a dit…

"It's amazing how people from all over the world have become familiar with English slang."

Some even know more than some Americans themselves... To schwing for example...

Anijo a dit…

Some even know more than some Americans themselves... To schwing for example...

Touché ☺

Anijo a dit…

As for the snow this glorious day in the Mesilla Valley, I found two AA batteries and thus here it is the marvelous beauty that I discovered on my front porch earlier today.

Flocon a dit…

Anijo, here is a video dedicated to the place women occupy in the French society and the unequal opportunities that are imposed on them.

You may be interested...

Anijo a dit…

Merci Flocon. Oui, je l'avais trouvé intéressante. Je vais l'envoyer à ma copine Brigitte pour voir ce qu'elle en pense.

Anijo a dit…

Pourqoui tu as le prince grenouille sur ton blog? ☺

Flocon a dit…

Just wanted to see if that silly thing worked... ;-)

Je l'enlève when I'm back home.

Anijo, I've noticed you often use the Je l'avais vu, aimé whatever tense instead of Je l'ai vu etc.

C'est comme en anglais je suppose. You wouldn't write I had found it interesting but I've found it for something you would have just discovered, wouldn't you?

Pas la peine d'expliquer, you get what I mean I'm sure.

Anijo a dit…

Ah, Merci Flocon. C'est une mauvaise habitude à perdre !

By the way, this word 'perdre' is very difficult for an American to pronounce correctly. :/

I think the silly thing is cute. Mais je trouve plein de choses mignons que les autres ici trouvent ridicules. ☺

Flocon a dit…

"this word 'perdre' is very difficult for an American to pronounce correctly"

You mean like perrrdrrre?

As you know, German, Italian, Spanish and many other languages are very predictable re pronounciation. French is not among them but English is the less predictable of them all

Plate and Template
River and Driver
Gauge... huh? Like gage then...

Hardly a day passes by when I read the NYT or any other text in English and I'm left wondering: how do they pronounce that one?

And I've been learning English for more than 45 years...

"je trouve plein de choses mignons que les autres ici trouvent ridicules."

Do you have names? ;-)

I'll put the fairy and the toad down the page...

Anonyme a dit…

Flocon:

//As you know, German, Italian, Spanish and many other languages are very predictable re pronounciation. French is not among them but English is the less predictable of them all//

You should say "...English is the least predictable of them all."

"Least" is an alternative superlative adjectival form of "little."

That said, as I noted in another post, your English is of a very high order for someone who does not have the advantage of daily immersion in the language.

SemperFidelis

Flocon a dit…

SemperFidelis,

As the guy says in front of his TV set after the answer to the quizz has been given: I knew it! I knew it!

But in this instance it didn't occur to me that it was the right opportunity to make use of this "alternative superlative adjectival form of "little."

Merci de me l'avoir rappelé, it will help me to better know and I'll be more aware of it next time.

Flocon a dit…

Today, and the day isn't finished, I've come accross peals of laughter (never met before) and to discombobulate (met once some years ago).

Talk of a word for non Anglophones...

It has a latin flavour in it

Anijo a dit…

'Discombobulate' is a word that has an amusing sound.

'Peals of laughter'. Although I am perfectly familiar with the phrase, the word 'peal' is rarely used except in this phrase and when referring to bells.

Flocon a dit…

Discombobulate sounds like a word children can't pronounce before they're 7 or 8 years old...

When they're younger, they hopelessly try as hard as they can but to no avail.

A word with 6 syllables is very rare in English.

Anijo a dit…

Flocon,
Take into consideration the following suffixes:

-ility
-ness
-tial
-tion

These suffixes allow for more six-syllable words in English than one might imagine.

Still, yes, widdle bitty kids find it difficult to pronounce words with many syllables.

Anijo a dit…

I have been blogging with my friend from Egypt. I posted the comment from the lady from Egypt on another blog and a guy from Israel (the West Bank) responded.

I received a message "HTML... at most 4096 characters". Not sure what this means, but I guess I have to post her message in stages.

Hello my dear friends ... here I am destined to come again

Sorry for making you worry Anajo but outta my hands, been participating in demonstrations in Tahrir and its hard to leave my people. I share with whatever I can, same as many many sincere Egyptian people. There in the million man march or settled demonstrations there ... people are not riots or causing any chaos like the brutal regime is trying to convey to the whole world ... instead, they spread their thugs all around the corners to take the food and medications we are bringing abouts to save our brothers and sisters in Tahrir ... And what do they do with stolen food and medications? They throw it in the NILE! ... thank you Mubarak, he is trying with each and every dirty means to kill people, I am impressed!!!

However, if you asked people there despite their hard conditions, bad health and shot gun fires flying over their heads and sometimes directly into their heads ... they would say persistently "We won't leave over our dead bodies, until we are 'assured' that this dictatorship Mubarak is gone".

Anijo a dit…

Part II

Hello Tony bro, thanks for your sustain and care ...
Mubarak is a tyranny and let me thank your nation, great Turkish people, for their sincere sustain and their great words for us from Turkey. I am sending you our gratefulness from Tahrir Square.
As for Mr. Baradey, we can't say he is our enemy but surely he is not the 'man' or the aspired 'leader' for Egypt especially he spent nearly most of his life away from our suffering and finally came after his time was up to Egypt to state his opinions. Well, to be democratic; we listen to him but not necessarily approve of all what he says.
As for "Ehvan-al-muslimin" or "Al-Ekhwan" <---- as being pronounced in Egypt namely Muslim Brotherhood. This is a purely Islamic group founded by Hassan Al-Banna who was shot long ago but still some scholars and some so very believers in him like to join this group, which is not scary or bad coz they "know" very well that Egypt is not Iran or Saudi Arabia who live in the strictness or extremism of belief ... they even understand their fellow Christian neighbors and even the moderate Islamic figures so long our traditions and cultures as well principles are not shaken ... which is sane to all of us, indeed.
I can't understand how the people generally are scared of them 'Muslim Brotherhood' they are so rejecting and have nothing to do with Al Qaida or Bin Laden ... and so rejecting what the Bin Laden and his followers had done, condemning him in the strongest terms. One of them even came out to declare to us; that if we totally reject living in the Egyptian society we would of immigrated to such other countries that are strict in the implementation of Islam ... they added, that they reject this totally coz they are promoters for Islam not distorting it. And if, they lied, then no body will believe them in the future same as nobody is believing Mubarak now and they are entirely NEVER the same.

Anyways, thats what they said and if we want to respect their voices as a matter of implementing democracy then at least we listen and discuss ... elections and pure democracy should be initiated by listening to all our oppositions including the minorities, that if we need real peace to evolve.

Hosni Mubarak tricks are well known by us and even by the smart Int'l community. He uses well the idea of the scary Muslim Brotherhood to scare America and Israel and uses this burnt card to pressure them to help him stay in Egypt and continue his tyranny ... which is quite naive hence, Obama and nearly most of the sane folks urges him to leave 'NOW' ... he uses other tricks recently sending his troops secretly to cause explosions in our gas pipes reaching to both Jordon and Israel to translate this fear out loud ... again naive and low life!

Anijo a dit…

Part III

Hello arrow ... nice question but it needs a bit of explanation and clarification: You used the term "voted" which we need now. We never voted for Hosni since 1980. I need to remind you that before Hosni, we were led by this great warrior namely Anwar Al Saddat who was assassinated. He appointed before this time, a deputy to take care of the country until a 'fair' and 'legal' elections take place. This curse, i mean, this deputy was Mubarak who misused the opportunity and took the presidential position since then without any votes or elections until now ... everytime, coming out to nation telling use since decades, I fought in the war and brought you peace, I am working on political and social reforms, I ... blah blah blah and blah. What he was working on very cleverly is how to divide us well low salaries to paralyze us or deprive us from a dignified life, very scary future, imprisoning any one who even have another opinion which could simply be objecting to his, torturing people using his lame police allied system, he even causes a rift between muslims and christians by bombing Churches as the one recently happened in Alexandria in the 1st day of this year! Why? simple answer and well known politically speaking -------> to divide us. When you divide whatever, you manipulate better and best. What is happening now in Tahrir an absolute unity which is not what he wants ... its power .. thats why he is shaking and trembling. I will tell you something I saw in the scene yesterday in Tahrir Square ... Muslims are praying and a huge circle was made around them by their Christian brothers and sisters to watch and protect their backs from any intruders might be sent from Mubarak to finish em up! can you see what I am talking about?! Mubarak only advantage now is he returned our love and unity to us .. only when we realized that he is our real enemy ... without him, we are better and unified.

Further updates: Mubarak continues his dirty plan .. he is chasing international TV reporters in Hilton hotel and others to put em in Jail or even kill em ... why? to blind the eyes of the world from what might happen in Tahrir ... he wants to kill ppl when all the world's eyes should be folded!!
Recent news about his wealth estimation ... actually our stolen money taken by him and his family ... reaches 70 billion dollars!!! while reports say that Egypt got more than 40% of its population find no bread to eat. I guess this needs no comment for now ... !

My last lines for now ... I wanna say; Freedom costs much, but its worth it. Even if I and my fellow people will die in Tahrir, we won't stop until we regain back our dignity, take revenge for those being killed (martyrs) on purpose by his regime.

Thank you all for caring to read the truth.

Anijo a dit…

Response from the guy in Israel.

btw joann, i know how this sort of statement makes me loved here- and specifically by you :) but your friend is an idiot. mubarek isn't even IN egypt right now, and far from controlling anything. she sounds like a nice...i mean, sincere person but that and 4.50 will get you a cup of latte- if you're smart enough, or able to move to the states. as i advised you to advise her. but it doesn't sound like she'd be interested- rather, she wants to stay and support her internet twisted version of who the egyptian people actually are- courage, as you must know, and stupidity, share a very fine line. still, i salute her courage, and i wish she was right. but she isn't.

I am sooo confused!

Anijo a dit…

Another comment from the guy who lives in the West Bank in Israel:

you guys really don't know anything about this stuff, and are easily swayed by the semi-literate ravings of egyptian bloggers who think they have actual influence, which they don't.

wake up. and if you have friends in egypt (which i, and my friends, also do) tell them to wake up, too. unless you care more about your political opinions (and theirs) than you do about actual people and their LIVES.


He's right that I don't know much about this 'stuff'. I've been reading Le Monde, Jerusalem Post, Haaretz, New Republic, New York Times, my friend from Egypt's comments and other sources. The more I read, the more confused I am! :/

Flocon a dit…

re 6 syllables words in English...

To discombobulate isn't constructed with any suffixe which "artificially" would lenghten the word contrary to words ending with a 3 syllable suffix such as 'ility'; that's what I meant.

The great strength of English is precisely the "shortness" of its words which permits this language to be such a fluid and evolving one.

--------

"I received a message "HTML... at most 4096 characters". Not sure what this means"

The comments window doesn't accept messages with more than 4096 characters hence the necessity to split them up like you did.

My latest answer to SemperFidelis needed to be divided all the same.

-----------

I tried Harrap's, Babelfish, Systran, Babylon and Google, not one single translator on line could render "widdle bitty kids find it difficult to pronounce words with many syllables."

Bitty is OK with me but widdle???

Flocon a dit…

I've read the message from you friend in Egypt (and this time I spotted some mistakes in her English) and again I have a feeling she's going a bit overboard.

Obviously one can read in her message paranoid traits of the sort that happen in these situations: rumors, rumors, rumors. He did this, he said that, he's masterminding the whole thing etc.

His wealth is estimated in the 70 B $! Huh?

Mubarak has sent some secret agents to blow up a pipeline... huh?

I'm no more nor better informed than you are Anijo but currently the clashes are between the anti Mubarak and the pro ones.

Also there are different kinds of dictators.

One can't compare S. Hussein, Kim il Sun (and his son) or Duvallier on the one hand and Ben ali who was a crook with a tough hand on Tunisia or Mubarak on the other hand who certainly isn't a purring pussycat but isn't either an atrocious dictator like S. Hussein was.

I think I have to agree with the guys posting from Israel. There's no carnage taking place in Egypt for the time being but your correspondent seems to be inebriated with her own revolutionary prose.

"Freedom costs much, but its worth it. Even if I and my fellow people will die in Tahrir, we won't stop until we regain back our dignity, take revenge for those being killed (martyrs) on purpose by his regime.

Thank you all for caring to read the truth."


Sounds like a speech by Fidel Castro or a last goodbye from people on their way to Auschwitz...

Flocon a dit…

Just compare the situation of people during the Soviet era when travelling abroad was absolutely forbidden (like is currently the case in North Korea or Cuba for what I know) and the Egyptian and even most of the Arab States where no such prohibition exists.

Not to say that Egypt is a model of democracy and freedom of speech but it's not a daily inferno where citizens are reduced to the status of slaves and robots like they are in North Korea.

Anijo a dit…

Bitty is OK with me but widdle???

Little kids have difficulty pronouncing the word 'little' and prounouce it as 'widdle'.

Adjective
widdle (comparative widdler, superlative widdlest)
(childish, chiefly US) Little; used in imitation of childish speech. The British counterpart is ickle.


Thank you for taking out the time to comment on her rant. I appreciate it a lot. I'm going to have to stop worrying about her. She has her mind made up and nothing I can say will change it. Or as I believe that you are suggesting, it might be that she is just exaggerating for effect.

I've read all I can read on this topic of Egypt. I need a break..

Anijo a dit…

I would imagine that all of these people hanging out together on Tahir square are fueling one another's emotions.

Flocon a dit…

re widdle. Ain't my friend reliable?

"I've read all I can read on this topic of Egypt. I need a break.."

Nothing beats Flocon's widdle posts ;-)

"these people hanging out together on Tahir square are fueling one another's emotions."

Mutatis mutandis évidemment, cela me rappelle les étudiants à la Fac en périodes d'examens qui se racontent des histoires sur les profs whose ultimate goal is to make them fail... ô-Ô...

Anijo a dit…

Mutatis mutandis évidemment, cela me rappelle les étudiants à la Fac en périodes d'examens qui se racontent des histoires sur les profs whose ultimate goal is to make them fail... ô-Ô...

ha!

I say I'm tired of reading about Egypt, but I'm still at it.

Mubarak family fortune could reach $70bn, say experts

Anijo a dit…

re the pipeline explosion

Saboteurs blew up a gas pipeline in northern Egypt overnight, disrupting flows to Israel and also to Jordan, where protesters angered by economic hardship have been demanding a more democratic political system.

State TV called the pipeline attack a terrorist operation. Residents in the area reported a huge explosion and said flames were raging in an area near the pipeline in the El-Arish area of north Sinai.

The SITE intelligence group, which monitors al Qaeda and other Islamist websites, said earlier this week some groups had been urging Islamic militants to attack the pipeline to Israel.

"Saboteurs took advantage of the security situation and blew up the gas pipeline," a state television correspondent said.

The government in the past has used a perceived threat from Islamist militancy to justify its use of emergency laws which helped keep Mubarak in power.

Flocon a dit…

Re Moubarak's estimated fortune, the pipeline sabotage and al tout cela est bien possible, il faut un peu de recul pour avoir une appréciation des choses moins confuse.

The U.S, it is said, give 1,5B$ yearly to Egypt. If Moubarak and his family actually own 70B$ it's more than 45 years of American aid (weaponry and God knows what) to Egypt.

If this 70B$ amount is correct then Mubarak is a beggar when compared to the ruling Saudi families.

And Berlusconi, with his 15 B$ is a pauper.

Now, fwiw, here is a perhaps more reliable source of information.

Nowhere is the name "Mubarak" to be found.

Don't misinterpret my opinion though.

I don't try to make Mubarak look like an angel, just trying to have a little perspective about what is said or written.

Ned Ludd a dit…

French tv and radio journalists regularly have catastrophic pronunciation of English and American personal names and place names. The same undoubtedly applies to Americans with French names.

It seems to me that they could at least make an effort and ask a colleague how to pronounce them.

As a rugby fan, one of the English players is named Tony Flood, and game after game the French play-by-play announcer pronounces it as in "food" and not the correct "blood". After a time you would expect someone to correct him.

Flocon a dit…

Complètement d'accord avec toi sur cette question de la calamiteuse prononciation des noms en anglais par les journalistes radio/télé français. C'est lamentable.

Même sur France Culture ou RFI il m'arrive d'entendre des horreurs!

J'y avais consacré un billet il y a 2 ans et demi.

je viens de le relire et je me demande si ta mémoire subliminale ne l'a pas enregistré à ton insu...


Also

Food but Flood and Blood.

Another example of unpredictablity as regards English pronounciation.

Anijo a dit…

Interesting mistake. I was attempting to explain how to pronounce 'moon' to a friend of mine. He would pronounce it like "meun". No matter how much he tried, he couldn't say "moon". I've noticed that the French from the south of France have a more difficult time pronouncing English correctly.

Anijo a dit…

J'y avais consacré un billet il y a 2 ans et demi.

Il y a ce lien intéressant que Jan a posté.

http://tinyurl.com/lo96y

Flocon a dit…

"I've noticed that the French from the south of France have a more difficult time pronouncing English correctly"

The French ability to pronounce English terms is simply appalling generally speaking; so the French living in the south with their already very accentued accent certainly are even worse offenders than the rest of us.

What about the Italians or the Spaniards?

--------

Je me souviens bien du lien de Jan ;-)

You should listen to some of the samples that are proposed, you may find them amusing...

Here you can hear a French male from Paris...

Since Jan is originally from France (Bondy for what I understand) but now lives in Quebec, I guess he was particularly interested with this issue at some time in his life.

J'en profite pour lui adresser mes amicales salutations ☺

Anijo a dit…

I'm not that sure about Spaniards and Italians since I'm not that familiar with so many of them as I am with the French.

I used to have an Italian boyfriend and his accent was pretty good, but then he had been living in the U.S. for many years and was very educated. His accent, as far as I can remember, actually reminds me somewhat of your accent Flocon...

As for Spanish accents, Rafael Nadal comes to mind and he has a very strong Spanish accent when speaking English.

Anijo a dit…

The French male from Paris. You pronounce your 'h' sound better than he does and overall you have less of a French accent than he does. I couldn't find one example that had the same type of accent that you do. You speak quite clearly and have a soft voice.

I noticed that he did not pronounce the 's' in spoons. In some of the other examples the French speaker did not pronounce the 's'.

Flocon a dit…

Let's have another test then since Ned isn't here to pound my ego to pieces...

Anijo a dit…

Thank you Flocon!! This is a lot of fun listening to you and comparing your voice to the others. You have no idea how much I like your lovely voice. I also thoroughly enjoyed your entire message and listening to you speak French.

You sound most similar to these ones:

15 sens
19 grenoble
35 toulouse

You're right that the example with the man from Paris is quite good, but he doesn't sound comfortable reading in English.

I did listen to one female example though. The female from Reims 36 could almost be mistaken for an American. What gives her away ever so slightly is the way that she pronounces "these"

I wonder if ZapPow sounds like this one?

Flocon a dit…

The voice you linked at, though very good at pronounciation, definitively has a slight black accent in it.

ZapPow has no accent (although he may occasionaly imitate Inspector Clouzeau).

En fait ces histoires d'accent dépendent d'une seule chose : a t-on l'oreille musicale ou pas?

Il y a des gens qui voient plus de choses que n'en voient ceux qui ne sont pas (disons, moins) sensibles au spectacle du monde et ne s'arrêtent pas pour observer ou suivre du regard quelque chose de fortuit, d'inhabituel etc.

Il en va de même je crois pour l'ouïe. Il est des gens qui ne font pas de distinctions entre deux sons assez proches ou qui sont incapables "d'extraire" la ligne mélodique d'une basse par exemple dans un groupe rock ou d'un violoncelle dans un quatuor à cordes.

How can one expect someone with a not so discerning ear to possess a good accent, not to mention a flawless one, in any foreign language?

En fin de compte, le langage parlé est une musique comme une autre. Celui qui n'est pas intimement musicien restera toujours handicapé par un accent plus ou moins marqué.

ZapPow est musicien, il écrit parfaitement l'anglais, j'en infère qu'il parle el Ingles sans accent.

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Funny how Ned's remark above made me remember of a two and a half year old post with a link given by Jan which you followed with the resulting exchange on the issue of accents...

La phrase est mal construite mais tant pis...

Ned Ludd a dit…

A funny thing is that I studied German in high school and college. I have forgotten most of the vocabulary and grammar, but when I speak to German colleagues, they say I should take it up again because with the few phrases I remember, they say I have a good accent. That is not true in French which I know much better.

As for Spanish, I find that the ones I know speak English well even though I detect the accent. I studied Spanish in Mexico, still retain my American accent, but sometimes the Spanish take me for a Latino American.

It was definitely easier to learn Spanish grammar than French. For one thing, in Spanish, the past tense is similar to English and is used currently. Also, Spanish subjunctive is easier to learn.

But now I am very rusty.

Ned Ludd a dit…

English spelling and pronunciation is rather arbitrary. Besides "flood" and "food", there is "good", and even others I can't think of at the moment.

Flocon a dit…

Ned,

I don't know about Spanish grammar but it can't be as sophisticated as the German one.

Unless one is really and definitively averse to foreign languages, German presents no difficulties re pronounciation or spelling as you well know.

Il y a infiniment plus de traps and unexpected sounds in English than there are in German.

Also l'anglais est beaucoup plus fluide et doux que l'allemand, it doesn't even compare.

La langue allemande est à l'image de la mécanique : reliable and not at all arbitrary as you write about the English language.

Anijo a dit…

they say I have a good accent

Ned,
I've been told that my attempt at pronouncing words in German is pathetic. I don't speak the language and I am only familiar with words used in English such as weltanschauung, zeitgiest, and schadenfreude. I can get by in Spanish, but I am ashamed that I do not speak it better than I do considering where I live..

Flocon a dit…

Anijo,

"I've been told that my attempt at pronouncing words in German is pathetic."

C'est plus que normal puisque tu n'as pas appris la langue.

On est toujours intimidé quand on aborde une langue étrangère. En plus la langue allemande est associée à une histoire récente, la seule qui soit évoquée dans les milliers de films qu'Hollywood a produits depuis 65 ans.

Notre rapport à une langue étrangère est imprégné des a priori et des clichés que nous avons de la culture et du pays.

I can assure you that German pronounciation is very predictable, easy and coherent. You just need to get used to it and it doesn't tale more than a few hours.

Some training may help...


Also, all nouns in German are capitalised.

Zeitgeist, Weltanschaung, Schadenfreude usw. (Und so weiter: and so on)

Flocon a dit…

Anijo,

I suppose if you could hear Ned speak you would detect some accent (I undestand she's from California) and the same would hold true with Semperfidelis, and conversely of course.

Not to mention someone from Montana or Texas I imagine.

But, granted, they all would sound "American" anyway.

Anijo a dit…

I just composed this long answer, then hit the 'publier commentaire' button, and it took me to some blogger page and I lost everything.. grrrrr..

I should copy before attempting to post..

Anijo a dit…

Anyway, what I had explained is that there are some accents that I can recognize right away, such as a southern drawl or a Texas accent. Those from California or Utah, for example, I would not be able to detect.

I'll record myself repeating the sentence. I doubt that Semperfi or Ned want to join in, but if they did it would be interesting.

I wonder if there's a French equivalent to this test?

Ned Ludd a dit…

Just for fun, fool and pool rhyme with cruel and rule, but not with book or look. Going through the dictionary of my mind, I quickly thought of eight or ten different pronunciations of "oo".

Away from "oo", howl doesn't rhyme with bowl, but does rhyme with bowel.

Anijo, I learned the hard way that I should copy my long texts after several crashes of Blogger. Now I often use a word processor to record/copy/paste before sending.

A useful free software for copying is Clipboard Recorder. It keeps all your copies until you decide to erase them.

Flocon a dit…

Ned,

"Going through the dictionary of my mind, I quickly thought of eight or ten different pronunciations of "oo"

A non native Anglophone really has to be a musician to move from one's native gamut of sounds into the English one.

Maybe you and Anijo had some troubles with the French en, un, on, oui, ui sounds.

For what I think I know, there are four sound inflaxions in Chinese which make me wonder if English isn't more difficult to pronounce than Chinese.

Christine a dit…

J'ai découvert cette semaine que j'avais été "croquée" par Anijo, tout comme vous, Flocon! On a toujours du mal à se regarder en face- enfin je parle pour moi...
Anijo, tu m'épatasses! Quelle tchatche!

J'ai entendu aussi le petit texte en anglais prononcé par des habitants de la terre. C'est très amusant: les Russes me font tordre de rire, mais très humblement! Primo parce que je n'ai aucune compétence dans cette langue, secundo, parce que je suis incapable de juger les accents des uns et des autres, si ce n'est au filtre de ma langue maternelle, ce qui évidemment ne peut être un critère d'évaluation indiscutable!

Anijo a dit…

Cou cou Christine!

On a toujours du mal à se regarder en face

Oui, c'est vrai.. ;)

Christine a dit…

Anijo,
C'est dur de revenir dans la conversation surtout quand il y a plus de 60 commentaires! Au secours, je suis perdue et trop flemmarde pour tout relire!
Je suis en vacances pour deux semaines! Youpi! Et je pars à la neige fin de semaine prochaine, double youpi! Dommage... je ne peux pas t'envoyer cette neige que tu aimes tant , mais j'ai cru comprendre qu'il avait neigé à Mezilla. J'imagine ton bonheur... Je te promets de faire des photos et de te les envoyer. Rien que pour toi! Na!

Ned Ludd a dit…

The problem with Chinese is that there are a lot of homonyms, despite the inflections. Written Chinese is a bit more clear, but it is still important to understand the context because the characters can have different meanings.

Flocon a dit…

Ned,

"The problem with Chinese is that there are a lot of homonyms, despite the inflections."

Why did I write inflaxion in my omment since it's the same word in French???

Must be the night when I fell asleep on my keaboard...

"Written Chinese is a bit more clear"

Aaaah, the fine art of understatement...

Anijo a dit…

Ah oui Xtine, il avait neigé à Mesilla! Je t'envoyerai la photo par email! J'ai tout de suite pensé à toi ce jour là. ☺

Christine a dit…

Envoyer est un verbe irrégulier (encore un, et hop!)Son futur de l'indicatif est:
j'enverrai, tu enverras, etc.

C'est si difficile d'apprendre (et d'enseigner) la conjugaison française!

Ned Ludd a dit…

Flocon, I don't have trouble with the words you mentioned, but I still have trouble hearing the difference between "bon" and "beau" with some accents. Then the numbers can also be a problem, like "six" and "dix" or "soixante-dix" and "quatre-vingt-dix" etc.

Sometimes I have to listen to my answering machine several times to get it.

Flocon a dit…

Ned,

It is the same for many French who often are not sure whether they heard six ou dix.

Ou 86 et 90. Et encore 6 et 8. Il y a des accents vraiment à couper au couteau (cf : Les Ch'tis, and no, I haven't seen it and never will).

What about sleuth, slush or sluice ;-)