Bon, alors ce que les media français faisaient était inacceptable, aux États-Unis le nom des victimes d'agression sexuelle ne sont pas rendus public, leur identité n'est pas révélée pour protéger leur intégrité morale etc. ("News organizations, as is customary in sexual assault cases, respected her wishes not to be identified".) et maintenant il y a une émission sur ABC news le soir à l'heure de plus grande écoute.
Well, I just saw an extremely well-rehearsed, choreographed (arm movements and all) performance
C'est le commentaire le plus recommandé par les lecteurs du New York Times, apparemment écrit par un Américain. La video ne montre pas le passage où Diallo sort son mouchoir pour s'essuyer une larme, passage qui a fait dire à un des journalistes de Newsweeks que l'émotion ne lui semblait pas très spontanée. Tu m'étonnes...
Elle s'en remet à dieu de la véracité de son témoignage, ce qui en Europe desservirait plutôt son cas mais qui peut avoir un effet positif sur l'opinion publique outre Atlantique.
Elle s'en remet à dieu de la véracité de son témoignage, ce qui en Europe desservirait plutôt son cas mais qui peut avoir un effet positif sur l'opinion publique outre Atlantique.
Mais Newsweek est un magazine sérieux, non partisan et respectueux des règles communément admises relativement à la neutralité des informations que diffusent les medias. Ainsi cette couverture où l'on voit un portrait en couleur de Bernadette Soubirous (a role model for Ned) affrontant avec une désarmante impassibilité (celle des innocentes victimes désignées) l'affreux regard d'un tueur représenté en noir et blanc par une photographie prise au tribunal quand il n'était pas rasé et n'avait pas dormi depuis plus de 24 heures. Si avec ça les jurés d'un improbable procès ne sont pas influencés... avec en plus tout ce que les medias ont fait pour charger Strauss-Kahn...
Not to say that the media are any better in France or elsewhere anyway...
33 commentaires:
Si avec ça les jurés d'un improbable procès ne sont pas influencés.
Ben, les medias ont pratiquement lynché Casey Anthony, sûrtout Nancy Grace, La Tricoteuse. Mais les 12 jurés ont trouvé Casey Anthony 'not guilty' quand même. The Burden of Proof is difficult to meet.
And, as the article from the NYT that you linked to stated:
The decision by the hotel housekeeper who accused Dominique Strauss-Kahn of sexual assault to go public this week could hint that her legal team believes that prosecutors are close to abandoning the case.
Lawyers not involved in the case said it was virtually unheard of for someone alleging sexual assault in a highly publicized case to come forward — name, face and all — to speak to the news media while prosecutors were still investigating.
Comme tu imagines, l'affaire Casey Anthony est pratiquement unheard of in France and probably the rest of the world même si il en a été un tout petit peu question. Chaque pays a ses faits divers (crimes and run of the mill insignificant affairs. There's no English entry for that one on Wiki so I guess you have another way of naming these affairs).
I never heard of that Nancy Grace before. On the one hand it's something positive when members of a jury aren't influenced like you say was the case in the Casey Anthony affair, et d'un autre côté il semble qu'elle était coupable mais comme tu dis "The Burden of Proof is difficult to meet".
Do you have an opinion Anijo?
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Pour ce qui est de Nafissatou Diallo à la télé il en a été question bien sûr et les précisions que tu rapportes du NYT ont aussi été données.
Des avocats français et américains inscrits au barreau de New York ont expliqué que c'était sans doute a last ditch effort par l'avocat de Diallo to save his case but that is was a very bald move probably deemed to fail.
Quand je regarde les 10 premières secondes de la vidéo (and throughout the interview) I can't help but think this woman is acting (and not only renacting). Look at her eyes!
I'm not rooting for Strauss-Kahn but I don't want to be fooled by the maid's version and the innumerable baseless details the media have been inundating us for more than two months now.
On a tout lu et entendu et son contraire (ce qui est une redondance puisque "tout" means something and its opposite)
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Jut in case, Bernadette Soubirous is a well know figure in France and I was taugh about her when I was a child.
I don't know about Christine et Ned though... :-))
Ooops... To make sure, je ne mentionne pas Bernadette Soubirous parce qu'elle a "vu" des apparitions mais parce que c'est l'image traditionnelle de la Sainte en France.
La couverture de Newsweek carefuly displays a picture of the maid like she's a saint confronting evil. Talk of éthique du journalisme
There's no English entry for that one on Wiki so I guess you have another way of naming these affairs
Je connais cette terme en français, mais je ne suis pas au courant d'une terme pour ça en anglais. Je crois que c'est une combinaison de 'Human interest story' et 'true crime'
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Do you have an opinion Anijo?
Well, I think she's guilty, but I also understand why the jury acquitted her of the charges of murder and manslaughter. They felt that the prosecution did not meet the burden of proof.
All of the evidence was 'circumstantial'. Not that someone cannot be convicted on only circumstantial evidence, but it is more difficult to meet the burden of proof with only circumstantial evidence.
Another set of 12 jurors may well have found her guilty.
In the end, I would rather that someone who is guilty be acquitted than have someone who is innocent be found guilty and sent to jail for 10, 15 or twenty years, or life, or even killed because of the death penalty!
The prosecution in the Casey Anthony trial was going for the death penalty! Of course, the jury could have found her guilty of a lesser charge which would have resulted in x number of years in prison instead of death.
In fact, if the prosecution had not gone for the death penalty, Casey Anthony would not have had so many big-time defense attorneys volunteering their services, and the rules of evidence for conviction would not have been as strict.
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The cover of Newsweek is similar to what one would find on a tabloid. Disgusting.
"In the end, I would rather that someone who is guilty be acquitted than have someone who is innocent be found guilty"
The first time I read about this thought it was attributed to Goethe but he certainly wasn't the first to express this idea or the last one for that matter.
You'd think this is an obvious moral stand and yet, there are people who think otherwise. They need a culprit, no matter if the person is guilty or innocent provided they have someone to "punish".
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"The cover of Newsweek is similar to what one would find on a tabloid."
I remember l'Amerloque once complaining about how both Time and Newsweek had entered a downward spirale of complacency and demagogy.
It also applies to Le Monde which was long praised as the French quality newspaper but that era belongs to the past.
La version en ligne du Monde is a joke. As I've often written, the NYT beats the French newspapers hands down.
I'm not that familiar with the Wapo though.
En revanche les hebdomadaires sont de meilleure qualité (Le Point, l'Express, Le Nouvel Observateur, Marianne etc.
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Considering the size and corpulence (which isn't obesity!) of Diallo, I am very, very sceptical that a man the age, size and health of Strauss-Kahn could physically do her any harm. Should she slap me, I would be embedded in the wall!
Comment se fait-il que dans un palace comme l'est le Sofitel et en particulier la plus luxueuse des suites dédiées aux VIP, les femmes de service puissent entrer alors que les clients n'ont pas encore libéré la chambre( en redonnant leur carte magnétique à l'accueil?)ou n'ont pas sonné la réception pour demander un service particulier? Voilà une simple petite question que je me pose toujours depuis le début de cette affaire. Avez-vous vécu vous, même dans des hôtels lambda, l'intrusion d'une femme de service dans votre chambre, si bien évidemment vous l'occupiez dans les horaires règlementaires?
Pour Bernadette, Flocon, cette histoire m' a toujours fait rire et je connais, comme tout Français (sensé?), de nombreuses blagues sur les miracles de Lourdes. J'ai appris que Sylvie Testud, une actrice que j'aime bien, tourne dans un film qui va s'appeler Lourdes. Une comédie paraît-il, où son personnage, qui est traîné dans cette galère, va être miraculeusement guéri! On doit s'attendre au pire! Enfin, moi j'm'en fous , je n'irai pas voir ce genre de film: même pour la Testud!Pas de miracle...
Christine,
Commençons par la fin...
J'ai vu pas plus tard qu'aujourd'hui l'affiche du film avec Testud et je me suis fait la même réflexion que vous. J'aime bien la petite (40 ans tout de même) Testud mais de là à me déplacer pour voir ça...
Sur les "miracles" de Lourdes Jean-Pierre Mocky a fait un film il y a bientôt 25 ans, Le Miraculé qui n'y allait pas par quatre chemins!!!
Le film avec Testud est déjà sorti en Autriche il y a 18 mois, je le découvre à l'occasion de votre commentaire (l'article en allemand est bcp plus fourni).
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Pour l'affaire du Sofitel on ne compte plus les versions et contre versions qui ont été données, les détails et précisions qui se sont révélés être du pipeau le lendemain. Ou peut-être pas.
A chaque fois que l'on croit commencer à discerner un semblant de début de quelque chose qui pourrait tenir la route on se voit détromper la semaine suivante.
Pour ce qui concerne la facilité avec laquelle une femme de chambre peut entrer dans une de ces chambres il semble que ce soit une question à laquelle il puisse être facilement répondu : Quelles sont les procédures en vigueur au sein de l'hôtel?
J'ai lu qu'elle s'était informée auprès d'un de ses collègues qui lui aurait dit (il n'y a jamais que du conditionnel dans cette histoire) que la suite était vide et qu'elle pouvait entrer.
Que DSK avait refermé la porte qu'elle tenait entr'ouverte avec son chariot de service, qu'il l'a pourchassée au sein de la suite etc. etc. etc. c'est à n'en pas finir.
Depuis le début les sceptiques dont je suis trouvent qu'il y a tout de même un gros lézard (s'il n'y en avait qu'un) dans cette affaire.
Y a-t-il même eu rapport? l'ADN aurait parlé mais est-ce officiel ou encore une version qu'un journaliste tient de l'homme qui a vu l'homme qui a vu l'ours?
Le fait que les avocats de Straus-Kahn parlent d'un rapport consenti peut faire partie de leur stratégie afin que la partie adverse croit avoir une assise solide que la défense fera s'effondrer quand bon lui semblera.
Faute d'élément probant, il ne reste que la crédibilité des dires de Diallo et aussi le simple bon sens.
Un homme comme Strauss-Kahn, pas vraiment sportif, de 28 ans je crois plus âgé qu'une fille costaude comme l'est Diallo est-il en mesure (si même cela était dans ses intentions) de la contraindre et cela sans qu'elle crie, ne se retire précipitamment de la suite dès qu'elle le voit sortir nu de la salle de bains? Je n'y crois pas.
A t-elle été tétanisée à la vue du corps de l'Adonis?
Je crois qu'il y a eu un plan de la femme de chambre qui a mal tourné, sa version ne tient pas la route.
Qui plus est l'audience qui devait avoir lieu dans 5 jours est de nouveau reportée, au 23 août cette fois-ci.
"Je veux que justice soit faite, je veux qu'il aille en prison. Je veux qu'il sache qu'il y a des endroits où on ne peut pas utiliser son pouvoir, (...) son argent"
a-t-elle déclaré pendant l'entretien.
Est-ce vraiment le type de discours que tient spontanément une victime d'agression sexuelle?
Pouvoir, argent... on dirait un copier/coller d'un manifeste gauchiste à scander pendant les manifs. Si ça ne fait pas partie d'un plan com. bien préparé par l'avocat de Diallo pour faire pleurer Margot alors je suis l'arrière arrière petit-fils de Bernadette Soubirous!
So far we, or at least I, haven't heard DSK' version of what happened in the hotel room. I thought that grand jury testimony was secret, maybe I am wrong, but if not, how did the press get hold of the purported victim's supposed lies?
Nothing I know of has been leaked of DSK's interrogations. Is it because of his position? Is there a double standard here?
Probably DSK's lawyers will not have him testify, so we will never know his version unless after the trial, if there is one, he decides to talk to the media.
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As to Bernadette and Lourdes, I strongly refer you to a book I may have mentioned previously: "Lourdes" by Emile Zola. He is one of the best at exposing the fraud of the whole rigamarole.
Ned,
De fait nous n'avons pas eu la version de Strauss-Kahn mais d'où viennent toutes ces versions si ce n'est de la part des journalistes qui sont en cheville avec tel ou tel cop who knows someone who's sister is working in the office next to the block where the offices of C. Vance jr are located?
Je ne sais évidemment pas comment fonctionne le système accusatoire vu de l'intérieur mais peut-être respecte-t-il l'adage romain : Affirmanti incumbit probatio.
Effectivement on peut s'étonner de ce que seule la version de Diallo soit "connue" mais peut-être le jornalistes n'ont-ils pas de sources du côté de SK.
Thompson (spelling?) seems to be of the talkative kind whereas SK's lawyers are not.
- "how did the press get hold of the purported victim's supposed lies?"
You're asking me? lol!
- "Nothing I know of has been leaked of DSK's interrogations. Is it because of his position? Is there a double standard here?"
I don't even know if SK has been interrogated. As pertains to the possible double standard it seems you're right, there has been one when SK was paraded handcuffed in front of the journalists just because that woman claimed she had been raped and the prosecutor hadn't even interrogated SK.
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Pour Lourdes, oui je me souviens très bien que tu as mentionné Zola il y a quelques mois, which led me to learn about this book of his series about great cities.
Pour tous les Français (donc toi) Lourdes c'est comme le Tour de France, la Tour Eiffel, Brigitte Bardo ou le Camembert ça fait partie du patrimoine historique.
Lourdes est synonyme de bondieuseries donc même si je connaissais le titre du livre de Zola depuis "toujours", je ne savais pas qu'il y dénonçait les rigamaroles locales.
who knows someone who's sister is working
That should read "whose sister is working".
Flocon, you made this same error the other day and I had thought that it was merely an unintentional mistake.
Whose vs Who's
Merci Anijo, a temporary lapse of attention. It's like when I see too instead of to in many comments in English here, there and everywhere or conversely to instead of too.
Like it's real to hot in here
Funny how one makes no mistake on a specific grammatical point for years (or even decades) and, for whatever reason, one day the train derails.
Le lien que tu donnes ("Common Errors in English Usage") is impressive and humbling too :-))
Flocon,
I have often made errors with 'to' and 'too' or 'their' and 'there' when I am typing quickly and then fail to thoroughly proofread before posting. This is why I usually refrain from correcting people on these types of errors unless the error is made again and again. There's a guy on another forum who always confuses 'than' for 'then'. He's a smart guy, and yet he has this annoying habit.
Sur le site auquel ton lien renvoie il y a cette page à propos de '50s et 50s dont il a déjà été question.
I remember you once corrected SF about it and mentioned you were rather inclined to stick to the tradition re these language issues which prompted SemperFidelis to write there are some positive points in being conservative :-))
Sur le site auquel ton lien renvoie il y a cette page à propos de '50s et 50s dont il a déjà été question.
Et cela continue avec des hundreds
which prompted SemperFidelis to write there are some positive points in being conservative :-))
And yes, I agree there are many positive points in being 'conservative'. My definition of 'conservative' is being adverse to change. There are times when I agree with change and other times when I would prefer that there not be any change. I suppose that the manner in which I have been brainwashed since I have been a wee lass would influence that which I prefer.
à propos de '50s et 50s
And even worse, à propos de 50's.
Sorry Anijo, but when I was in primary school decades ago, I learned that 50's was the correct usage and I still use it.
Let me add that when I first saw 50s being used, I was surprised to say the least, but language usage changes. In the early 19th century, "ain't" was a respectable word and later Mark Twain(and others probably)wrote "to-day".
"I am confusing you, ain't I" certainly makes more sense than "I am confusing you, aren't I". And few would write "am I not".
Now Ladies, you're getting the little Frenchie confused. So there exist three different possibilities. '50s, 50' and 50's... each one apparently considered possibly wrong.
Notwithstanding what form the Brits would use. Hmmm... What am I going to do now?
Pour "Am I not" c'est ce que j'écrirais, souvenir de mes cours d'anglais in the beginning of the 60s, '60s, 60's [chose your pick, girls ;-) ]
Parmi les nombreux commentaires que j'ai lus aussi bien en anglais qu'en français (et probablement en allemand, italien etc. car le premier exemple a dû être dans la presse américaine and it sprawled over thanks to the Internet) I've noticed a recurrent logical kind of reverse syllogism which goes like :
The fact that she lied to the immigration agency (or whatever administration) doesn't mean she hasn't been raped.
Also, Even if she wasn't gang-raped as she once pretended to have been doesnt imply she wasn't this time around.
Not being a logician (which I regret) it very much looks like something's wrong here.
On peut tout écrire avec ce genre de construction pseudo logique qui met en relation deux termes qui n'ont rien à faire ensemble like they were intrinsincally connected.
What about Even if she lied to the immigration office, that doesn't mean she didn't practise parachute?
Or This man in an Arizonian jail may be a drug dealer, that doesn't mean she didn't eat strawberries last year<.
James Dean died in a car crash, that doesn't mean he didn't tear apart that little girl's heart when they were at school.
Ad lib.
The funny thing is that these comments formally mean exactly what they say : That doesn't mean indeed 'cos there's no logical relation between the two terms involved.
Even funnier, people resorting to this sort of "reasoning" suggest precisely the contrary of what they write, that is, there is a logical relation kinda of: if A = B and B = C then it doesn't mean that E > G or M < T².
But the later proposition simply has nothing to do with logic and all with a wandering mind suffused with wild imagination.
Donc cette pseudo argumentation it doesn't mean c'est du pipeau avec lequel on peut refaire a Tolkien-like world.
Even if Anijo is a painter, it doesn't mean she wasn't born in Honolulu. Well, now it doesn't mean that, what a strange idea.
Even if Ned is into behaviorism, it doesn't mean she doesn't make her daily prayers to Bernadette Soubirous (no she doesn't, what a strange idea again).
Even if SemperFidelis is a Marine, it doesn't mean he didn't travel to the moon.
Send your best "it doesn't mean" to the publisher, you may win a pocketful of pinguin shit!
Re the apostrophe with dates. Well, I did some research on all of this. Turns out that all three are correct.
'50s
The apostrophe indicates that "19" has been omitted.
50s
This is the British usage and modern American usage.
50's
This is sometimes found in American usage and is acceptable. I find that the apostrophe here makes no sense because it creates a possessive and the apostrophe is not necessary.
"Turns out that all three are correct."
Bon ben comme ça je n'aurai jamais faux! :-))
J'aurais dit, 'j'aurai toujours raison'. So does 'j'ai faux' have this same meaning as 'j'ai pas raison'?
C'est comme en anglais Anijo.
"I shall always be right" is far too much assertive whereas "je n'aurai jamais faux" basically conveys the same meaning but in a much more modest way.
D'un point de vue logique, vrai et faux sont comme des antonymes au même titre que blanc et noir, donc si A (vrai) ≠ B (Faux) alors B ≠ A, c'est la même chose.
Save que le langage naturel est beaucoup plus qu'un langage logique et qu'il emporte avec lui (brings along) un univers de signifiés inconnu de la logique.
The shy and timid Flocon not wanting to be mistaken for a self-boasting big mouth resorted to a polite way to express his relief he will never be wrong whether he uses '50s, 50s or 50's.
And here we go again:
"@ mike, just because someone has unexplained bank accounts and lied on their asylum application does not mean that they are incapable of being raped."
Doesn't mean either that they are incapable of swimming through the English channel or meeting some Chinese relatives in Bagdad and on and on and on...
And that person is adressing "Mike" to teach him some lessons in logic while 36 raders recommend his comment :-))
At this point in time all is conjecture and speculation. Nothing more, nothing less.
One might question semantically what people are saying, and split hairs, but we know precisely what various people are attemting to say to the best of their abilities. Diallo may have lied to immigration authorities, but this does not necessarily mean that she is lying vis-à-vis her accusation of sexual assault. DSK may be a dirty old man, but this does not necessarily equate to him being a rapist.
"At this point in time all is conjecture and speculation. Nothing more, nothing less."
I understand you're subtly and quite elegantly referring to Wittgenstein's 7th proposition and I have to agree with your here.
True to a certain extent but something happened and it's no speculation though.
Now this can be considered with some reasonable ground as an exercise in futility, yet the mind wanders...
Among the comments I read on the NYP, some mentioned Al Sharpton as the person they would expect soon to side with Diallo and that would be the end of what is left of her credibility.
I understand that guy hasn't much credibility himself then.
Also it has been said - and not proven wrong afaik - that she had 5 cell phones. The fact that she possesses 5 cell phones doesn't mean she hasn't been scuba diving in the Dead Sea but yet, how many cell phones do you own if ever?
Bizarre.
You know what Anijo? I was thinking of that female journalist who interwiewed Diallo and who buntly asked her if she was a prositute! Ouch!
Is that the kind of question a woman would ask another woman if she didn't have herself serious doubts regarding the true nature of the purported victim?
Ok, she's a journalist and she must entertain the crowd but yet...
Asking a woman who claims she has been raped if she is a prostitue!!!
Imagine a man asking such a question... Oh Lord!!
Yes, let's imagine a French journalist asking DSK if he is a rapist.
But I want to get back to the punctuation stuff. The apostrophe is used with more than numbers and possessives.
Some might write: There are two "t's" in "letter", and others might write that there of two "t"'s in "letter".
We also use them with some acronyms. If we want to speak of similar space programs, we could write: The NASA's of the world.
Many newspapers, universities, and others have their own so-called "style manuals". I mostly use Merriam-Webster's Concise Handbook for Writers" because it is small enough to easily use, but I also have the University of Chicago Manuel of Style, which is a bit too much, and the Associated Press one, but my version is too old.
"Yes, let's imagine a French journalist asking DSK if he is a rapist."
You're being too elusive Ned, I know there's irony in your comment but I don't know if it's directed at me (I can take it :-)) or at the French journalists in which case you're right, they wouldn't ask that kind of question.
Un violeur n'est pas une victime (au premier degré) donc on pourrait lui poser cette question, mais à une victime!
Ce serait comme demander à une mère dont le gosse a été assassiné si elle l'a tué!
Sometimes less is better mais là c'est trop court, je n'ai pas compris what you meant...
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Regarding the apostrophe, there seems to exist so many cases when they can be used that I might eventually intersperse my posts randomly with 3 or 4 of them, I stand a chance to be right every now and then...
Some new development yesterday.
The timing of the lawsuit was unusual for cases that also involve criminal prosecutions; typically, accusers wait until a criminal matter is resolved before proceeding with a civil action
Prosecutors generally advise accusers to refrain from filing a lawsuit while a criminal case is pending because it exposes them to discovery, and defense lawyers can use it to color the accuser’s motives.
Why am I suspiscious vis à vis the pious Muslim, demure maid uninterested with money?
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