For sure, Joan of Arc isn't exactly an everyday object of interest in America, no more than it is in France for that matter, but nevertheless, the few opportunities I've had to meet this character mentioned in the American press or books, it looks like there's some sort of sympathy -if not mild fascination- with this 19 year old maid who contributed decisively to oust the English out of XVth century France.
Ousting the English out of some territories... Hmmm... Is that music to American ears?
Also, Joan, from the very beginning of her self appointed mission, never failed to recall she heard divine voices telling her to deliver France and that God was always her inspiration. Does this religious component of her story contribute to the interest and respect she may enjoy among a certain segment of the American population?
And who would have expected the great American writer, Mark Twain, to write an imaginary biography of the French national heroin?
Now, when I come across Joan of Arc when speaking with English people or when her name is mentioned in the British literature, I can feel some uneasiness. The less she's talked about, the better it seems.
And I was wondering if Americans in general don't make a connection between the story of Joan of Arc and their own experience of English purported intolerance which eventually led their ancestors to leave England and settle in the new world.
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Following Sarko's defeat last Sunday, Maureen Dowd had a piece in the NYT the day after where she mentions Joan of Arc.
Hére it is: "Joan of Arc, another tough, charismatic crusader who wanted to keep foreigners from invading France".
Hmmm... excuse me Maureen but I have to suggest you revise your history book.
Although the context was ''sightly'' different six centuries ago and the immigration issue simply inexistant, Joan of Arc's mission wasn't meant at preventing France to be "invaded by foreigners" but to expel the English from the territory of France.
Bon ce n'est pas important and I confess I'm being finicky here.
I seize the opportunity to reissue a more than four year old post dealing with... well by now you probably know...
Didn't you know that Joan of Arc visited America with Jesus on at least on his second visit there. I don't know why Joseph Smith didn't report on that in his book of Mormon. Or maybe the church is hiding some of the chapters of Smith's work. I suspect that Smith should have known, or he may have not understood that in his book, that Jesus made several visits to lead America in the right direction. The last time was to assure the election of George W. Who do you think tinkered with the voting machines?
During the time of J. Edgar Hoover, the FBI gave preference to hiring Mormons. So Jesus has been helping make America great over two centuries.
Joan of Arc was a popular symbol in America culture at the turn of the 20th century--the beginning of the canonization process in 1894 resulted in a number of works about Joan over the next 20 years of so in America and England (Mark Twain, G.B. Shaw in England; Shaw's play was brought to Broadway first in 1923)
Feminism may be one key.
Joan had the power to unite old and new on the threshold of the 20th century. on the one hand She was a figure from the romantic middle ages that were newly in vogue thanks to William Morris and other opponents of the ugliness of the industrial age. On the other, she personnified the "New Woman" ...Her symbolic power as a woman who took history into her hands (rejecting gender prescriptions and dressing like a man!)resonated among women fighting for the right to vote in the US during this period, I think.
Ned,
"Didn't you know that Joan of Arc visited America with Jesus on at least on his second visit there"
Err... no, I had no idea...
I should have known the religious component in the post would trigger some kind of response. My bad...
Cellequilit,
I never thought the feminist issue could be a factor but now that you write it it seems to make sense.
Bonne mise en perspective historique! ;-)
Il est vrai que le monde anglo-saxon was way ahead of Europe (and particularly France) regarding societal topics at large and feminism in particular.
On the other hand, Joan was a product of her time and it may be intellectually challenging to have her don concepts that have emerged centuries after she died.
Go girls go!
J'ai une théorie à propos des Puritains du Mayflower : ils ont tellement cassé les pieds de leurs voisins en voulant imposer leur vision qu'il a bien fallu s'en débarrasser. Et plutôt que de les tuer, ce qui se serait passé dans un pays moins policé, moins tolérant que le Royaume-Uni ou les Pays-Bas (dont ils furent chassés aussi, me semble-t-il), on leur a suggéré avec une certaine véhémence d'aller se faire voir sous d'autres cieux (où l'engeance a bien failli être annihilée).
ZapPow,
Je me souviens que tu as déjà avancé cette idée il y a... pfff.... je compte plus.
Il y avait eu un échange avec Mark sur ce thème du départ de l'Europe où j'avançais qu'à ma connaissance les colons n'avaient pas été contraints manu militari de quitter le continent comme les condamnés de droit commun anglais vers l'Australie.
N'ayant jamais approfondi le moins du monde la question de l'histoire du MayFlower et des conditions matérielles qui ont amené à cet événement, je ne suis pas affirmatif.
En tous cas, je n'ai jamais entendu dire qu'ils ont été virés d'Angleterre ou des Pays-bas comme les Juifs d'Espagne en 1492, les Protestants français après la Révocation de 1685 ou je ne sais plus quelle ethnie par Staline dans les années 30 (à moins que ce ne soit après le lancement de l'Opération Barberousse pour complicité suspectée d'alliance avec les Allemands).
Pour en revenir à nos colons, il suffit d'observer comment leurs descendants imprégnés/imbibés de religiosité se distinguent par leur progressisme et leur ouverture d'esprit pour imaginer ce que leurs ancêtres devaient casser les bonbons à leurs contemporains d'il y a quatre cents ans...
Je fais le rapprochement avec les Juifs du temps de Pharaon et le parallèle me paraît évident : Au-delà des siècles et même des millénaires, l'affirmation - limite hormonale - d'être différent et d'être dépositaire en ligne directe de la Vérité ultime et révélée envers et contre tout (surtout oontre tous), à la fin ça lasse...
Et les Anglais du XVIIe c'est-à-dire aussi très exactement du temps d'Erasme (1469-1536), étaient au fond bien policés comme tu dis pour ne pas avoir recours à des méthodes à l'espagnole.
Ce serait aussi l'occasion de soulever le point de savoir si la prétendue intolérance religieuse des Protestants d'alors qu'évoquent sys-té-ma-ti-que-ment les "défenseurs" des colons (faudrait préciser but I'm in a hurry) n'est pas plutôt l'admission de leur propre intolérance à eux qui ont préféré partir plutôt que de vivre en bonne intelligence avec leurs voisins.
C'est toujours la même rengaine des paranos qu'ils sont victimes de la "méchanceté" des autres quand c'est d'abord eux qui créent les conditions de leur exclusion.
cf. les Juifs depuis... eh ben depuis toujours et où qu'ils aillent (dans mon immeuble pour commencer)
I may have mentioned this American comic and his radio program at SF or even here before: Garrison Keillor and Prairie Home Companion
He said that his ancestors came to America to enjoy more restrictions than were permitted by English law.
Recently in the U.S. presidential campaign, the word "etch-a-sketch" has come to describe Romney(I think). However, Keillor also has written many books and articles and once described George W. during his second campaign as "an etch-a-sketch" president.
No one has given him credit for it.
He also described Bush's philosophy as badly sutured body parts trying to walk.
Flocon, "Je fais le rapprochement avec les Juifs du temps de Pharaon".
Les histoires des juifs en Egypt sont un mythe. Leur esclavage supposé et l'Exode n'ont jamais existé.
The Bible Unearthed
Ned,
oui, je me souviens que tu as déjà cité Garrison Keillor et je trouve sa phrase "his ancestors came to America to enjoy more restrictions than were permitted by English law" très spirituelle mais aussi très inspirante and historically true.
Tous les "dissident religieux" - so to say- n'ont pas quitté l'Angleterre, les Pays-Bas (of all places the most tolerant at that time) ou l'Allemagne, un certain nombre est resté tout de même (moins dissidents?) et finalement l'intégrisme religieux s'est dissous dans la masse pour quasi disparaître alors qu'il a prospéré dans les colonies.
No wonder évidemment puisque toute chose tend à persévérer dans son être tant qu'une force supérieure n'est pas là pour s'y opposer ou la limiter would say Spinoza (more or less, it's not a verbatim).
Les religions étant des névroses collectives, plus elles s'éloignent du réel plus elles prospèrent dans leur déraison.
C'est le propre des sectes et des théocraties sans opposition où précisément les opposants sont éliminés comme un cancer qui prolifère par la métastase des cellules saines.
La remarque de Keillor est drôle et tout-à-fait fondée d'un point de vue historique.
Last night I sat at the foot of the larger-than-life equestrian statue of Joan that stands at the point in New Orleans where North Peters Street and St. Phillips Street divide in two. The statue is beautifully gilded and maintained. She looks down on a corner at which are a store owned by Nigerians selling colorful African fabrics, and another store owned by Lebanese selling various sex toys, some of which could only be useful to alien beings.
I leave the metaphysical implications of this juxtaposition to others wiser in the ways of the world.
Please note that a very large number of early immigrants to the US were Anabaptists from South Germany, who sought to escape a Continental persecution. They didn't need any push from the English. Their decendents survive in the large communities of Amish, Mennoites, and Hutterites in Pennsylvania, Ohio and other states in the Midwest.
SemperFidelis
SemperFidelis,
Your comment is interesting on several accounts...
- 1°) Your comments are interesting per se for a start...
- 2°) It gives credence to the concept of synchonicity Anijo is familiar with.
Now, how often do you have the opportunity to sit at the foot of a statue of Joan of Arc? The maid isn't exactly a daily subject of conversation with me and the day (give or take a few) I post again a four-year old text because I read a piece by Maureen Dowd on the NYT, you happen to meet Joan eyes to eyes (so to say) something like 5,000 miles from where she was born and died...
Sheer coincidence? Ah, come on...
All the more so since you tell us it was in New Orleans. New Orleans? Arghhh.... Orleans is the town in France where Joan scored her first major victory against the English.
No wonder there's a statue of Joan of arc in New Orleans will you respond. Yeah, sure. But what the hell were you doing in N.O (next to) the very day there is this post on your favorite blog?
Sheer coincidence... yeah sure...
- 3°) Now, your comment reminds me of an article on Wiki in English that I translated into French six months ago (See Article Wiki de la semaine on the sidebar)) and that I had forgotten since.
But wait... there's still more to it that it seems!
- 4)° On the base of the statue is an inscription which states that the statue was given by a French "feminist" association and dedicated to the women of America.
Doesn't it ring a bell with Cellequilit's suggestion that the issue of feminism was probably an important factor which could explain why the figure of Joan of Arc somehow calls for attention on the American side of the pond?
- 5°) Last but not least: how many statues of Joan of Arc (or streets, avenues etc. named after her) in England? And how many in the U.S?
"I leave the metaphysical implications of this juxtaposition to others wiser in the ways of the world."
I don't know about metaphysical implications re the Nigerians, the Lebanese and Joan of Arc (with some soul searching I probably could find something ☺ ) but I certainly do believe there's more than meets the eye regarding your stay in N.O and the ensuing implications that I mentioned in the previous entry.
More than meets the eye. A beautiful set expression which does have metaphysical implications for sure. hint: does the world exist only because we can see parts of it? Are the eyes the unique and ultimate passway to the world or is there another gate we don't know of and/or are unable to fathom?
If someday I find the courage to write the Thoughtlessly rubbing one's eyes post, that will be an opportunity to expand on this matter.
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As pertains to "early immigrants to the US were Anabaptists from South Germany, who sought to escape a Continental persecution."
Just how much persecuted were these people exactly?
There sure were large scale and stately organised persecutions againt the Protestants in France during the XVIIth century (dragonnades and al) but in Germany?
Coincidentally (err... never mind about the coincidence in this case), I translated into French an article in German (doesn't exist in English) about a purported witch who was beheaded and burnt in 1629.
We all know about witch hunts (Europe as well as Salem), but how much were religious minorities persecuted in the Netherlands for example, which were the paragons of tolerance and freedom during the XVIIth in Europe?
Don't know, just asking...
Must go now, I'm working on translating this into French...
From another point of view, when I was in America I bought a t-shirt from a stand run by an old Mexican woman at the Park of Old Town in San Diego.
It shows a 19th century picture of a group of Indians with rifles in their hands. Above it is the announce "Homeland Security" and below is "Fighting Terrorism since 1492".
I was advised not to wear it at the airport by a friend.
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